Our Little Sparrows Podcast

Thanksgiving and Secondary Losses After Baby Loss SE1 EP6

November 16, 2021 Geoff & Toni Brabec Season 1 Episode 6
Our Little Sparrows Podcast
Thanksgiving and Secondary Losses After Baby Loss SE1 EP6
Show Notes Transcript

 You may be asking yourself why Thanksgiving and other holidays are so hard in times of grieving. One reason might be because you are reminded that your life is different after the death of your baby. Additional losses or "Secondary Losses" that follow as a result of your baby loss are the most common way life without asking reminds us of our painful experience. In this episode we are going to discuss what "Secondary Losses" look like for parents of Pregnancy and Infant Loss, how they can make this Thanksgiving holiday so challenging, and what you can do to help yourself face this Thanksgiving head-on.











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ready right so you may be asking yourself why is thanksgiving and other holidays so hard in the season of grief well today in this episode we are going to discuss secondary losses and how it can make this thanksgiving so hard and challenging for those who are grieving hello we are jeff and tony brabeck the founders of our little sparrows pregnancy and infant loss support and if you're new to our podcast and our youtube channel you can check us out at our little ourlittlesparrows.org all right tone so today we're going to get into secondary losses um having to do with the thanksgiving holiday coming up is it next week already no no maybe maybe like a week and a half yeah it's like a week and a half pretty darn close close enough yeah so you know it begs the question here at the beginning at the top of the episode we have to ask ourselves so if we're talking about secondary losses what makes thanksgiving and other holidays so hard and then obviously we needed to find secondary losses because i don't i don't i don't even think we knew the definite like we didn't even hear of the secondary losses it didn't even enter our minds right but obviously it reflected in our lives as parents of loss so yeah let's dive into the first so so what makes thanksgiving um and other holidays so hard in general well in general even aside from thanksgiving coming up is that grief exposes a lot about yourself and where you're at it can expose vulnerabilities that you might think you have or feel that you have and in others and it highlights even more so the change that has occurred or all the changes that have occurred since you may have experienced um loss so in in our case is the loss of a baby and so changes such as like maybe obviously you were supposed to have a baby at this time of year either is still pregnant or are already born and unfortunately that baby has died and so there's no baby right and that literally is the definition of a secondary loss right the fact that they're that that that child is missing in the family photo that that's that child is not in the picture for that thanksgiving they're not gonna be there yeah that is like a whole secondary loss like if you normally get your family photos taken at you know in the fall and you were anticipating having an addition a new addition to that family photo and then you go to or you know you realize your family photo schedule is coming up and so there's which is something you normally do i mean most families do some sort of family photo or family trip or or an outing during the holidays right so whatever pictures are being taken during this time of year right that's where there's a gap there's that child is missing right so that's a secondary loss right so let's just get to the definition of secondary loss so the definition would be any subsequent loss or a loss um that follows the initial or primary or primary loss okay so for example like so we lost our baby in october another um like a subsequent loss or secondary loss could be something like um this one happens i think a lot of um relationships is that there is a breakdown in communication in result of or that takes place after the loss of the babies when something traumatic happens sometimes in marriages or you know just relationships in general there's a breakdown in communication because either we're just grieving differently we don't understand what the other person's going through fully and so there causes a change and sometimes even a breakdown in the relationship so um separation divorce um things those are all considered secondary laws that would be considered a secondary laws so it's a result of the initial loss these are the things that tend to follow or can yeah kind of like a ripple or a domino effect that's kind of what we're thinking of so um and then so that's just one example it is unfortunately one that we see a lot in especially marriages and co-parenting relationships so that's something you might see or even like with just your friends and family because right they may or may not fully understand what you're going through they may not be as supportive as you would like um and and there's maybe some hurt that has been experienced and so therefore your friendships and relationships with those people have changed so that is a secondary loss so as a stemming from the initial loss which is the loss of the baby right so those are some um some examples and then there's some other ones there's all different kinds um obviously the list that we have here that we're sharing with you today is not like the only things that can happen not comprehensive i mean it even includes co-workers right because if you're working if you're at a job in a certain in any position it really doesn't matter um there's there's relationships that have changed um possibly possibly i mean some people are not going to clue in right right some people are going to treat you as they've always treated you and i'm sure depending on your relationship with certain co-workers or even bosses which is a coworker in in most frame frames of mind um but some people don't see that as the same either they see as your hierarchy as your boss is someone maybe maybe most maybe some people feel like it's not someone they could even talk to on that level so it's going to be different um completely different than than a spouse um a direct family member and as and even your friends you know for the most part so yeah so there is can be a lot of different changes in a lot of different relationships that we have so and that can be positive or negative obviously if it's you know a negative impact then that would be a loss that you might potentially grieve over depending on that relationship and i think when it comes to relationships um it's like we we've said in previous episodes if we have a support person if if that's your spouse if that's if that's not your spouse but it's the it's the baby's parent the one that died maybe that's your support person or it's a really close friend i mean these are the times when it comes to other relationships these are the times to really lean in on that support person when you think yeah absolutely support is key and trying to find and and stick to those support people that truly are there for you right um that's important to help you through those you know those really hard seasons and moments of grief um so yeah so that's definitely so other than other than relationships we thought of some other areas too um that you know these secondary losses are really gonna you know can show themselves um so it's just this is just kind of a kind of an eye opener maybe for some people where they're like oh i didn't it didn't even dawn on me right that's what that was so another thing that we were talking about was finances yeah and sometimes people may not even see this as a type of loss yeah and it really just depends on the situation and finances i mean maybe stemming from like maybe you had a hospital visit or a trip to the emergency um maybe you got you know in the united states depending on your insurance you get hit with a large bill all sorts of bills and um yeah yeah we got time i mean we got the nicu we've we've got the physician bill you've got a hospital bill you got this certain particular anesthesiologist yeah i mean it just it compounds right it definitely compounds and that's a different type of grief but like but even just you know depending on um your financial situation even before the loss of your baby and then now you're dealing with you know accumulating bills possibly debt more direct stressful causes anxiety stress yeah and so that can be us a sense of it's a burden too you know in general because it's a change it's changed how you know these dynamics have changed and in other situations it could be like maybe you had to let go of your job or you couldn't work anymore because maybe um this is just one example it's very hypothetical but if you um lost your baby and could not return to work right because you're dealing with a lot of um maybe trauma depression or um then you need more time you're not able to yeah maybe you're not able to return to work when they um your employers asked you to come back you know and as a result maybe you can't they had to let go of your position so that can be a loss that's the ultimate financial loss yeah your family's income so it's income loss so those are i mean a lot of people change jobs too true and it has nothing to do i mean it may not have anything to do with the co-workers the employer in general and may just be that person has decided that they need a change and for them that change means a different line of work a different company for whatever reason that could be anything yeah and even though maybe you have chosen to leave it doesn't mean that you can't experience feelings of grief around leaving that position you know there's there's so lost in that even though you may be choosing to leave so i just want to put that out there in case people might be having chosen to leave their job right and they're feeling grief and feel like oh i but i chose to leave i should i shouldn't be feeling this way yeah but you can because it is still a change it's a major change so we have these we have these relationship changes uh we have these financial changes but then there's something that you dove into which i thought was very interesting and that we're going to talk about is like a physical like a like your body change yes absolutely and obviously i can only speak for the women um or for myself experience right but is that you know being pregnant and regardless if you were pregnant for six weeks six months nine months after you use your baby there's still a significant amount of physical changes that your body is going through so hormonal changes obviously that takes time and even though maybe you were only pregnant for maybe just a few weeks those hormonal changes take that much time and maybe even longer to kind of get back to the way it was before you got pregnant well i mean even for us for for our miscarriages right it's like do you do the um do you do the the the procedure to remove what needs to be removed right what does that call the dnc again do you do the dnc do not do the dnc and if you don't do the dnc then you have there's a procedure with waiting you know for that before for it to happen naturally you know and that's and that's completely valid too absolutely yeah um early pregnancies right right yes so i think there's changes in our body that have taken place and once your baby has either been delivered um or maybe it's been you know with the surgery yeah um there are still changes that like that a lot of i know for myself i it took a long time for me to feel like i was even close to back to normal whatever normally whatever that is for you but for me i was like i you know my my body is still showing like it's pregnant but i don't have a baby well even with olivia like you your your breast milk yes like that's that's something that i wasn't prepared for yeah and when you said that that happens i was like yeah your breasts wow your breast milk will still come in and even sometimes although i don't know how often this does happen but in like miscarriages that happen earlier in the pregnancy maybe it's the second trimester um right well when i'm talking about olivia just to be clear if you haven't listened to our podcast before we're talking about our firstborn that went 33 weeks um and then she was born so that's completely different than our two miscarriages so we're kind of we're talking about nine weeks yeah right so there are physical bodily changes that happen and um sometimes our body still shows that it looks like we're pregnant but we are not and so it's dealing with the fact that our body has changed our body may not return back to normal the way it was before we got pregnant right and so that can feel like a loss if that can be something that big people can feel grief over because one they don't have a baby you know the reason why their body is changed so much is not there you know they don't have that baby to show for the bodily changes and so when it just takes a lot of time it takes a lot of time for our bodies to kind of recover right and sometimes we just don't even think about um the amount of time that actually takes to recover from all of all of the hormonal changes and body changes that we went through well i like too that you're you also talk about fatigue you know i'm just looking at our bullet points here and you're also talking about fatigue so it's not just a physical change it's also an emotional your energy level right yeah it's it's so many things across the board and i think that's where it's so easy to think to feel like other people's comments other people's statements are insensitive because there's a lot going on there's not just one or two different things that are going on right there's everything going on and people just don't know right you know it's the whole thing you haven't walked a mile in my shoe in my in my shoes right and even when like we try to comfort with empathy and compassion for parents that have experienced along the lines of what we've experienced just baby death in general we still cannot put not even us who are in the same community of pregnancy and infant loss we share a common bond but but we're our experience is completely different than everyone else's uh and it just it's not the same right yeah and i say emotionally um or you know the fatigue it plays into definitely um our emotional well-being and sometimes um we just don't feel emotionally the same or mentally the same i think too even for me i had a significant loss of concentration i was very forgetful and i couldn't do my job and so that was something that i was like putting pressure on myself i'm like i should do i should be able to do this well then you feel like you're letting your boss down or your co-workers so that's like a third or fourth level loss yeah you know what i mean and so you don't kind of think of that as being a loss but it actually kind of is it is um so because you know it's undue pressure back on yourself and that's not a positive right so it's definitely a loss versus a gang you're not gaining anything by being hard on yourself right yeah um so again we're just we're just trying to bring light to things here we're not giving answers or solutions by any means but but i think what we're trying to do is just come back to the definition of grief it's a normal reaction what you're feeling what you're going through your secondary losses um you know feeling guilty feeling fatigued all those things are not they're they're you know don't be so hard on yourself but be aware that this is why this is happening right this is just awareness yes absolutely so beyond fatigue what else are we looking at when it comes to you know changes yeah well we kind of touched on it a little bit but there's a loss of sense of self and we talked a little bit already about kind of like identity yeah yeah a little bit yeah probably i wouldn't doubt it i mean i know my identity was shaken but yeah exactly the father my identity was shaken right i get that for myself and yet as a mother the same thing you know if if this is you know your first pregnancy or and you don't have other children at home um this can shake your sense of identity what you thought was happening or going on yeah am i a mother am i a father sure oh yeah so that is you know um you were hoping to be a mother or father and and does that make you a mother father i mean i think it does but right you know people have different thoughts on that so um so that kind of is a sense uh can be a secondary loss it's a sense of self there is intangible losses which sense of self would be one of those but losses that aren't really one that you is not obvious um to the eye like loss of faith maybe you're questioning um your faith questioning who why would god let this happen um and then that could lead to loss of trust you know so there's things like that that are not physically visible to our eye but they are emotionally felt and spiritually felt right and so i think trust can go both ways it's intangible and tangible uh the spiritual is obviously intangible but it's something that you know your spirit it's something you know faith is is belief in something that's unseen right right but but a lack of trust of your partner other relationships because of the way they've treated you or the way they've reacted to the situation yeah completely tangible but i mean yeah that's all part of trusting yeah so and yeah i mean there's lots of other loss of expectations what your dreams were you know loss of dreams and hopes so all of that can it could play a major role in in the upcoming holiday because it's gonna frame how you feel even approaching it let alone going into it right whether you feel secure and safe and protected or will or whether you feel completely vulnerable and everyone's right you know just doesn't understand which makes you feel like they're against you but you know that it's like that tug of war right it's like it is like the insensitivity feels like they're against you you know but i mean it's confused it's a confusing time i think it's confusing for those obviously who haven't walked a mile in your shoes but it's also confusing for you as the one receiving the mixed messages and information the insensitivity that can be there i'm not saying it is right the potential is greater right for thanksgiving and other holidays because you are um it's that time of year when you expectations right yeah you're seeing more people there's more obligations and expectations of you know your level of involvement participation in things um you're you know you kind of have to be like on in the sense of like you know especially if you're at a gathering right you know but social depends on the on the people that you're yeah couldn't be around maybe it's you know it's a work gathering you don't know everyone very personally so it's kind of like you have this obligation to be there and um to be i don't know having fun and enjoying can you imagine if you're if you're the supervisor or even the owner of the company and you're putting you know this is the holiday party i wasn't going to cancel it yeah so there's an expectation that you're going to get up there and yeah wish everyone a happy holiday even though inside you're not happy yeah right it's it's overwhelming and can be really burdensome for a lot of people so i think you know holidays can definitely bring to light those vulnerabilities that we might be feeling so right that's why it can be challenging and i think too depending on how long ago your loss was and you kind of mentioned this um that your family's incomplete right and if you're lost like ours is coming up on eight years right and we have james our soon-to-be six-year-old and then we have our five-month-old audrey and i'm assuming so i'm just guessing but i'm assuming some members of our family would expect us to show up and not be thinking about olivia or our miscarriages but be so grateful that we not only have james but now we have a six-month soon-to-be six-month but five-month-old uh in audrey yeah um good bad or otherwise like our family is incomplete no matter what yeah nothing changes that right not having james coming up on six and especially not having our daughter olivia you know losing our daughter audrey losing to our daughter olivia eight years ago like those are those are not the same right right those are two separate children um i'm not saying that family members would say that we you know audrey healed heels or wound but they could yeah audrey audrey heals the wound of olivia might have been you know said to me in one way or the other from you got a girl yeah and now you should be so happy and i'm like yeah i am happy i'm thrilled but our family is still in but it's kind of like that you know arrival of the newborn um audrey or james at the time kind of like made everything better right losing olivia and i'm playing yeah and that's kind of been that has been said to me or implied and i didn't know that yeah and i'm like be careful but it's not olivia it's yeah olivia is gone she's olivia in right though we have james and audrey now it does not replace or take away it doesn't make us any happier it doesn't make us any sadder our reality is our reality yeah and the same for for for everyone out there you know even even if you you know even if you don't have subsequent pregnancies but let's say you excelled at your job or you started a company and it's worth millions and people are like aren't you so happy right it's like i am i am right because it's thanksgiving right and like what are you thankful for and i should be thankful that i have a job i have a home and i have a dog and you know and that's true and that's true but but it doesn't again it does not replace the fact yeah it doesn't replace the loss that we've experienced it does not replace the baby that we lost so that's what i think too thanksgiving can be hard because there's that expectation that we need to be thankful for what we have right yes that's true and it can also be a time and place that we can acknowledge the losses that we've had yeah but that does not is not necessarily acceptable to everyone to do that right and that goes right in line with you know friends and family just don't know what to say like some people don't know how to talk about the losses some people don't know how to talk about uh it's great it's awesome you know audrey's beautiful she's such a blessing and james is such a smart kid and he's really kind and and has a great heart um we just we just love your family and um we're also thinking about olivia and and are in the two miscarriages right a lot of people don't know to say that they don't know how to say it right they don't know how to bridge that from the living to the dead or from the dead to the living to want to say that you know like right that's like why would we go there i already even say that you know that's what i the feeling i get why would i even talk about or bring them up and to be fair to be fair without our experience i don't know that i would be as sensitive to that right yeah as i am now right that's that's where the grace comes in we've talked about that like it's it's interesting how the v not victim sorry i hate saying i apologize it it it's interesting how the person who has experienced the loss is actually the one to lead others to understanding right right yeah and in order to do that you have to have a lot of grace you have to have a lot of empathy and compassion because others will step in it without even knowing it and there there will be others who step in it and they they know it for very very well right but those are two different those are two different conversations right yeah definitely grace for others and grace for yourself too right you're not gonna know how to handle all of that you know so we've talked about all the things that can go wrong and and we've really i hope i hope that uh you know bringing these things up have made you feel like you've been able to connect some dots for yourself and you've been able to to realize that oh these are additional losses this is a not just a cause or or a um or a consequence thereof not that what you did was wrong what happened has consequences are not just our actions but what happens to us uh has uh consequences and has um secondary um cause you know causes yeah um that's the wrong way to say it but anyhow um so essentially we've talked about all the things that can go wrong now we need to to give some hope yeah we need to connect the connect everything here and basically ask yourself okay fine if now i realize these secondary losses and these conversations are not always going to go well and it may be difficult to go to the holiday party or to go to the family gathering it's like okay if i do go if i do engage in these conversations what do i do right right well i think the first thing to know is that you know you are not alone um it may feel like you're alone because maybe no one else has said to you they've kind of experienced the same thing or experienced a loss to even to even know how to support you but um you are not alone i mean you know there are people there who can support you and it will take some initiative on your part to either share a bit of your story or just be open to letting people know what you've gone through to to know who is your support you know you're gonna have to share a little bit about your story and then you'll find that you know people will come to you and say hey i experienced this you know something similar and you might find it you know a support person in that or someone else who's experienced a loss not necessarily a pregnancy or infant loss but a loss that understands what it's like to go through a death of a loved one um a disappointment like that so and hopefully that'll give someone uh you know some confidence to know that they're not alone yeah but i think also and this is the next point is that it's important to understand like baseline where you at in baseline we're all grieving that loss and and i think a lot of people especially you know in our society we don't even we don't know what grief is let alone what to do with it you know what i mean so defining grief is very important and um the definition that we have for grief comes from the grief recovery method um which tony and i instruct and teach and it's the normal and natural grief is the normal and natural response to loss or change of any kind and it's so important to know this it's so important to know that you're not crazy and you're not weird if you're grieving yeah like we're all grieving in some way right hopefully for yourself yeah but being able to define it for yourself right yeah um and i think i mean we're our own worst critic i mean that's where the whole you're not crazy or weird comes in right because sometimes we can be awfully harsh on ourselves we feel like we're stuck when we can't move forward or chaotic in of itself and so you're might even be thinking like because it's so chaotic it's not linear any has any kind of order um but it's just means that you know when you're experiencing grief it's chaotic and it's not necessarily that there's anything wrong with you it's just that grief is is grief there's it's gonna be messy it's gonna be right ugly and so it doesn't have i mean that you're messy and ugly it's just that grief is messy and ugly right and not to be too hard on yourself right you know and i mean it's important to know too that i think it's not just grieving grief in the moment that you are grieving is not just about you it's also about society as a whole and how they react to it right and so that comes that comes around the whole thing that our society as a whole which includes us we're not really equipped right you know to know understand and work through grief right yeah i would say um i say majority of us growing up we're not taught proper tools to deal with loss and grief right and disappointments um we're taught you know don't cry um right you know man up and you know keep going or even if we were taught to go ahead and cry it out that doesn't define the grief right right it doesn't that doesn't it doesn't define to kind of basically stuff our feelings down for i'd say i'd say on par yes the majority of our society is taught pull yourself back up by the bootstraps you know you may have had a down moment but you got to pull yourself right back up yeah like that's what we do as a you know the braybacks or the the neveresses or whatever you know there's that whole family dynamic right we were taught probably a lot of incorrect messages on how to deal with loss and disappointment so not necessarily on purpose either no it's just kind of usually it's a generational thing yeah that was just what we grew up i'm sure that's how our parents were taught and that's what we've learned from them and so we learned to you know just get over it you know keep busy and don't think about it or you know replace it you know you lost your dog oh get another dog oh you lost your baby oh don't worry you're young you'll have another pregnancy soon or you have a breakup of a boyfriend or girlfriend it's like oh don't worry there's plenty of fish in the seat you know it's well it's a it's a get over it mentality you know pull yourself up by your booster another one it's keep busy that's also pull yourself up by your bootstraps yeah you know your loss is replaceable it's like you fell and skinned your knee we'll go get a cookie yeah it's like well that's not a good dietary habit yeah yeah you don't look at it you know they got an amazing metabolism metabolism when they're five years old it's like yeah but now they're 50. right and they're they're trained behavior just like a band-aid it's not actually treating the actual wound it's right just something to kind of cover it you know get your mind off of it to get over it get past it quick and a lot of times it's not even about the person who is hurt it's about the person who has to be around yeah the person who's hurt instead of the empathy and the compassion and slowing down and being the partner being the support they're like this is confusing it makes me uncomfortable i just want them to feel better so that we can go back to normal great and it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa it doesn't quite work like that yeah no and unfortunately i mean that's just the dynamic of relationships yeah um and then families as a whole no but what if it's your spouse right you can't sometimes we can't pick or choose who our support person is i mean uh who our spouses are because they're already our spouses right right and then the situation hits you and it's something that maybe you've never faced and you've never faced anything similar to it so it shakes it rattles and and sometimes it causes uh the glue to become stronger between the relationship uh for better and other times it dissolves the glue and you realize that it just the relationship was not as tight and as close as you thought it was and people go their own way unfortunately right but that's a whole other yeah that's a whole other topic but but i think it does speak to our society as a whole[Music] you can't ignore the fact that as a society as a whole we we rarely know how to define grief right because we don't deal with it very well right so if we dealt with it well we could define it well right so all of that in mind obviously we are wanting you to know that if you're you know experiencing all of this it's your normal for experiencing grief right and the attitudes that we get from other people in society is not necessarily your d it's not your doing it's just our society um and we have to live in this society unfortunately um but if you're asking yourself what do i do with all this you know these feelings these emotions um uh the sense of loss the sense of numbness and all that stuff the the primary thing that anyone could do in that situation and we're not doctors we're not therapists but if you go back to the who what where and why that is just defining your situation so if you if you can at the very least the at the very least define your grief for yourself and define who you are as a person and what you want to do with your grief you will be leaps ahead of other people that are just flat out stuck because they're not looking inward and saying okay our society's messed up i know i didn't even know how to define this grief right and i still don't know how to define it that's perfectly fine than normal but knowing and understanding that grief is the normal reaction you know our society the way they're responding it's normal it doesn't make it right but if we can realize and it kind of takes the veil away from everything then it's not such a compounding situation on ourselves and i think it allows us to take some control back and it allows us i mean just just the fact that we can understand for ourselves that we need to teach others the empathy and compassion that we want for ourselves that's a that's a game changer in itself because because then the expectation is on ourselves and not on other people because other people are always going to let you down right and that's that's either that's really no fault to them um but it doesn't necessarily mean that's the person you want to hang around or should be hanging around like that's that's a whole nother discussion but if we can if we can primarily realize that we're we need to be the educators for other people who have never experienced this so that they know and understand the the level of empathy and compassion that should be given to us and to also in turn have empathy and compassion when they don't right i think that puts the control is probably the wrong word but it puts the power back into us which i think if you're looking at it in a positive and negative way that's a positive right you're you're steps ahead and you're in the right direction as far as like positivity versus negativity you know garbage in garbage out and i know that sounds maybe cold and callous but it's true it's fact if you're allowing garbage in and you're allowing it to fester and you're allowing it to dictate and dominate your thoughts your actions it's not going to be a good outcome but if you can realize that the expectation shouldn't be on others but the expectation ironically should be on me to teach others empathy and compassion and hope in turn that they may show you empathy and compassion that's on them if they don't but if you're doing it for yourself then i think that's a net positive uh instead of expecting or waiting for others to do it for you because i think you're always going to be waiting yeah always yeah it's a level of advocating for yourself completely yeah right educating advocating like totally synonymous uh yeah yeah so anyhow i we we hope that this is helpful i mean we're not again we're not doctors we're not therapists we're just giving you um our personal experience i love what you've what you shared about your body about your energy level um about you know about your experiences uh with olivia and your experience with the miscarriages completely different uh all three of those in their own right and especially between olivia going 33 weeks and having early term you know eight and nine week roughly um miscarriages um they're all different but the way we grieve and how we grieve is is a lot is a lot the same really is you have anything to add at the end um no i mean i well just a little quick note um if you want to find out you know here some like practical tips that you could do during the holiday season we do have an earlier video that you can watch with some some tips to kind of navigate the holiday season i think that's episode three or four if you look at our catalog on the audio podcast you'll actually find that if you're listening on youtube you can obviously go into the youtube library and you'll see that episode it's the either the first or second week of october so it's really recent um but yeah we we hope that you you know that you found this helpful i mean as always tony and i want everyone who's listening to know that you're loved uh that you're not alone and that your babies all our babies or your baby your babies all of our babies will always be cherished and remembered all right if you're listening on the youtube channel you can click or tap above to listen to our next weekly podcast and if you click or tap below you can actually check out our grief series the pregnancy journey grieving from diagnosis to loss of your baby and beyond thank you for joining us